From the Automation List: Walt Boyes' narrow vision...

Sept. 25, 2005
A few days ago, I posted a long discussion about software HMI/SCADA systems, and ended with the comment that I would stick with Windows, but that I would not get into it, "because it is a religious argument, and I don't belong to the Church of Kill Bill." Peter Clout, who manufactures a non-Windows based SCADA system, replied, and I think it is important enough to continue the discussion here. I've reposted below both my post and his answer. It so happens I don't disagree with much he said. Ho...
A few days ago, I posted a long discussion about software HMI/SCADA systems, and ended with the comment that I would stick with Windows, but that I would not get into it, "because it is a religious argument, and I don't belong to the Church of Kill Bill." Peter Clout, who manufactures a non-Windows based SCADA system, replied, and I think it is important enough to continue the discussion here. I've reposted below both my post and his answer. It so happens I don't disagree with much he said. However, I've been a member of the automation list since it began, and the debate over non-Windows based operating systems IS in my opinion, a religious war...at least to some of the debaters. I DO wholeheartedly agree with his comment that "I do not believe that there is one solution for every class of computing application. What is the right solution for the foundation of a family home computer is not necessarily the right foundation for real-time mission-critical control nor for mission-critical very-large commercial applications." However, Peter, you have to agree that based on results, Windows seems to be adequate for many control applications. And Peter, be certain that disagreeing with me won't keep you from the pages of CONTROL. Walt PS. What do YOU all think? ------------ Forwarded Message ------------ From: Peter Clout To: [email protected] Subject: Re: HMI: ICONICS or CitectDear List, Walt Boyes for some reason used my post to hang his opinions on. I do not propose to address his opinions of Citect and Iconics as he has clearly spent time looking deeply into them and, in addition, there is no question that they both have a great market share. However, I have to express my disappointment that someone who professes to serve the community as a top journalist appears to have such a narrow view of the automation world. In his narrow vision certainly is the majority of the automation market as computers have followed PLCs to do what was previously done by relays or monotonously by hand. When one adjusts ones peripheral vision to be more effective, one begins to see that there are other roles for computers in industry where the requirements take one beyond the capabilities of the high-volume automation products. I talk of monitoring and controlling high-speed production processes where control loops execute in microseconds and the control algorithm is custom code. There are also applications where the first-principle models of the process have to be incorporated into the total system. Clearly, these systems have mission-critical computer requirements and while there are some good experiences out there, I think that for the general public, Windows has yet to earn that reputation. Example: One customer with $1,000,000 lost in production breakdowns found the reason moments after our high-speed monitoring software was installed. A loose screw on one of the 1,000's of PLC connections was loose causing a motor drive to be commanded to stop, breaking equipment. This was only a 100Hz scanning system. Let's be straight on this, this is not a religious war but a technical issue. I do not believe that there is one solution for every class of computing application. What is the right solution for the foundation of a family home computer is not necessarily the right foundation for real-time mission-critical control nor for mission-critical very-large commercial applications. In Engineering and Science there is a rule that "the harder one looks, the more one finds". Then, when the new data is understood, the process can be not just automated, but improved in productivity and quality. However, the good news is that there are products like ours that are the same product on many computer platforms giving the customer a choice and keeping the innovation-spurring free-market competition alive. Of course, after my writing this, any chance of our company being mentioned in Control Magazine has gone! Peter Clout Vista Control Systems, Inc. 176 Central Park Square Los Alamos, NM 87544-4031 (505) 662-2484 FAX (505) 662-3956 Cell (505) 450-7810 [email protected] http://www.vista-control.com On Sep 22, 2005 2:19 pm Walt Boyes wrote: >Both are extremely good HMIs, and both are state-of-the-art. The proof of >that is the number of large automation vendors who have private labeled all >or part of each and use them as their own HMIs. > >If you have Schneider plcs there is not much contest: Citect. They have a >very close working relationship. > >Both have OUTSTANDING enterprise integration suites. > >Iconics is bigger in the US, Citect is strong in the Asia Pacific area. > >Both have excellent tech support. > >Citect is on record as having the largest SCADA/HMI system in operation, in >a mine in Western Australia. > >Both are .NET compliant, although Iconics has a slight lead in that area. > >Iconics appears, on the surface, to be easier to implement if you are a >system integrator, but I suspect that is a surface-only appearance. Citect >has some excellent integration tools, also. > >They are, in my opinion, neck and neck the best of the independent HMI >solutions (not supplied by a DCS manufacturer), except on alternate Tuesdays >and Thursdays, when they are all tied with Wonderware. Other HMI solutions >are rapidly improving and are likely to catch Citect, Iconics and Wonderware >within the next year or so. > >It is a great time to be an end user! > >There are strong reasons not to select a non-Windows solution. I won't go >there, because it is clearly a religious debate, and I don't belong to the >Church of Kill Bill. > >There, I've stuck my neck out. (grin) > >Spitzer and Boyes LLC is working on two new Consumer Guides... one to >HMI/SCADA systems and the other to DCSs. If you want them, you can let David >Spitzer know at http://www.spitzerandboyes.com. > >Walt Boyes >Editor-in-Chief >CONTROL magazine >www.controlglobal.com >read my blog, Sound Off! at controlglobal.com or directly at >www.livejournal.com/users/waltboyes > > >On September 22, 2005, Peter Clout wrote: > > May I suggest that it very much depends on the application size and > > other requirements. If you > > can identify the industry and the performance and other requirements, > > I am sure that you will > > get good advice here. > > > > Have you considered a non-Windows solution? Other platforms offer > > great software as well as > > much better security and stability. Many can also incorporate Windows > > PCs where they are the > > most suited for that part of the solution and are not mission critical. < (Complete thread: http://www.control.com/1026214077/index_html ) _______________________________________________ Automation mailing list managed by Control.com Inc. Submit posts to [email protected] Manage your subscription at http://lists.control.com/mailman/listinfo/automation or e-mail [email protected] with message subject or body 'help' (without quotes). Before posting, please read http://www.control.com/control_com/alist/faq_html. Questions? E-mail [email protected]