In this podcast, Craig Resnick and Larry O'Brien at A.R.C. Advisory Group, talk with Jim Montague, Control’s executive editor, about the early impacts of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) on the process automation and control industries, how they're responding to it, and how digital transformation may give users some of flexibility and remote collaboration/monitoring/control tools they'll need to handle future crises.
Transcript
Jim: Hi, this is Jim Montague, executive editor of Control magazine and controlglobal.com. And this is the latest in our Control Amplified podcast series. As usual, we're talking with different experts about important topics in the process control and automation field and seeking to go beyond our print and online coverage to explore some of the underlying issues affecting users, system integrators, suppliers, and other people and organizations in these industries.
Yet again, I'm interviewing our friends at A.R.C. Advisory Group, who provided some level headed input for my late breaking news story on the early impacts of coronavirus disease 2019 on the process automation and control industries for the April 2020 issue of Control. They summarized some of the early responses to the pandemic and detailed how digital transformation may give users some flexibility and remote collaboration, monitoring and control tools they'll need to handle similar crises in the future.
With me today is Larry O'Brien, A.R.C.'s vice president for Research. His area of expertise is process automation on the supplier side in the upstream and midstream oil and gas industry. We are also joined by Craig Resnick, vice president and a member of the Automation Consulting team at A.R.C. that covers the PLC, PAC, HMI, OIT, and industrial PC markets as well as the packaging plastics and rubber industries.
Well, guys, thanks for your nimble response despite the unprecedented events we're all going through now. And let's get started.
Larry: Sounds good.
Craig: Okay.
Larry: We're good to begin.
Jim: Okay. Beyond all the mainstream coverage of COVID-19, how is the pandemic affecting the process automation and controls industries so far? What input are you guys getting?
Craig: Well, this is Craig. I would say we've been getting, you know it's probably been a little bit unbalanced in the respect of what industries are seeing an immediate surge versus what industries seem to be slowing down. Some of the industries that are really kind of feeling the surge aspect, you know, you think of it as you're going through a shift in models for people who are now having a lot of products that are being delivered, let's say, directly to their home and, as a result, having companies like Amazon needing to hire 100,000 extra people, companies like CVS adding an extra 50,000 people. So, what we're seeing is, is that in the area of things such as like pulp and paper, the amount of the type of product that they are needing to produce. We all know what it's like to go to the supermarket and look at the items such as bath tissue, and so, how do you handle that initial surge knowing that surge will last for a period of time. And then people will have an awful lot of inventory, so they will have to kind of change what they're producing. But it's also going to change the type of packaging and container board and other products that they need to manufacture right now to support the companies that are doing a lot of that in-home delivery.
It's also putting a lot of change to the food and beverage manufacturers and the pharmaceutical manufacturers because, rather than sending their goods and services to major retailers' warehouses, they are now broken down into smaller lots and now shipped directly to put on the store shelves. Some of that inventory is also being shipped directly to the consumer and kind of bypassing the traditional channels. So, it's putting more pressure on them to change the way that their products are being packaged, for example.
We're seeing in industries like automotive, where initially, when the impact was much strongest on China, first saw that aspect of the supply chain get shut down. And then, as the virus really moved into Europe and seeing how the changes that they need to make there and a lot of those factories being shut down. And then, obviously, as that moved into North America, that really put a lot of weight on the automotive industry because they didn't feel their supply chain was quite as nimble and flexible enough and adaptable based on what was going on.
Nobody can certainly dispute what's happening in the oil and gas industry, where you have tankers all throughout the ocean filled with unsold oil and between the pricing wars and the production wars between countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia, and then, in spite of the United States trying to see if they could intervene in that war. But, looking at West Texas Intermediate and barrels down to below $20 or slightly above $20, so we recognize what that kind of pressure that's putting on the oil and gas industry. So, it's been extremely volatile. But at the same time, we have found some common denominators, which is that what these companies across all industries need to do is find ways to make their supply chain more flexible and have greater visibility, at the same time bringing real-time principles into supply chain planning and execution.
And the other thing is, is that no different than, as we spend a lot of our days doing the virtual meetings and webcasts and working from home, they'd like to bring a lot of those remote principles, bring it back to the factory floor and be able to leverage the IoT technology and be able to get that information from the factory floor and deliver it to people's homes, or wherever they may be, to be able to do a better job of running their facilities if the workforce cannot have access to the facility and people need to be making some of those production decisions from remote locations. So, those two phenomenons are really getting center of attention, right now, across all of the industrial automation industries.
Larry: Yeah. One of our other analysts just wrote a blog post about the coronavirus in the control room, for example. So, this highlights the need to do remote work. Anecdotally, I've heard some stories about operators at power distribution centers essentially being in lockdown in the control room with a cot, you know, running the plant to make sure they don't get sick. A lot of these facilities are running pretty lean. If a few people get sick, it can really mess up your schedule pretty bad, and you don't have enough qualified people to cover operations. So, we see a big drive toward more remote operations and remote monitoring, and people need to be able to do that securely, too. So, in some ways, it's speeding up people's digitization programs because they need to do a lot of this stuff right now.
Jim: The shifts are just kind of amazing in that, you know, you have increases in things like consumer goods and food and beverage and things like that. But then, there's the shift from utilities. Well, a lot of industries would be depressed. But then, things like water, wastewater and power distribution would be shifting from commercial buildings to the...There'd be much more emphasis now on the residences because everybody's at home, right?
Larry: Yeah.
Craig: I'd agree that's correct. What's very interesting though is, one of the challenges that these utilities, like everybody else, are having is whether or not they're kind of shifting the resources from, say, commercial to residential, but you still need to be able to make those changes. And this is where, again, is, as I talked about earlier and as Larry talked about earlier, this whole remote access issue becomes front and center. And it's interesting because some of the industrial automation players have announced that they are making free licenses for remote access to their products and solutions free. So, over the next quarter, they're going to be going to their customers that have their installed base and announcing that they're going to say, "If you would like to have, you know, remote HMI, for example, we're going to enable you to have free access." There was a recent case study of a water utility in Haverhill, Massachusetts, that has now has gone through exactly, Jim, what you just mentioned. And, again, their automation suppliers are providing free access to the installed base of their equipment for that exact purpose and, as you know, shifting some of the demand from commercial to residential and being able to monitor it from a remote location because that city has a stay-at-home order.
Jim: Right. It's just very tough to wrap your head around some of those changes and probably even tougher for the people who are actually attempting to do it. Is anyone, any of the players in the process industries, mobilizing to help local governments and healthcare providers handle the pandemic and, if so, how are they doing it?
Craig: Well, I think what they're doing is, I think that just that first reaction of being able to provide the remote access and give those licenses away without even asking for purchase orders because they recognize at this time, where a lot of budgets are frozen, that people may have a difficult time accessing that. But we're seeing that from the automation suppliers across the board kind of going to the aid of their customers, but at least something in the area of remote access is something that could be done pretty instantaneously in a great deal of the installed bases.
Jim: Right. You guys mentioned people are using much more of the Zoom tools and the Microsoft teams and the teleconferencing if they have the bandwidth. Is there any other good strategies or practices that are helping the end users deal with COVID-19 that might be useful to others? What might they include?
Craig: One of the things that we're seeing is people are really using this time that they're not traveling, that they're not going into the plants, that they're working from their home offices to really get into, I would say, really, planning mode. And now...
Larry: Yeah, I was gonna say that too.
Craig: Yeah. And in one of the things, and it's actually at A.R.C., Larry and I, and all our colleagues, the reason that we've been so busy over the last three or four weeks is that the end-user community across all industries are saying, "You know, we've been talking about digital transformation for a long time. We began our journey, but now, we recognize that digital transformation is now mandatory." Instead of worrying about the initial, what's going to be the ROI, for example, of some of this digital transformation change, now we recognize that, long-term, when we come out of this, we had better be prepared to be able to have the most flexible, nimble, real-time visible supply chain that's possible. And we better make sure that there's no geographic limitation to our ability to monitor and analyze and control our business. And when it comes to technologies, for example, such as using tools like augmented reality and virtual reality to kind of help supplement what people are seeing on the factory floor, because they may be walking the factory floor from a remote location, for example, and be able to really get to know what's happening there, so they can make the best and most optimized decisions as possible. So, you're seeing that right now is people are going to be, even if their budgets may be frozen for the moment, but this is going to be the second calendar quarter 2020 is going to be the planning quarter. And the people are going to say that...
Larry: Yeah, not everybody is idle, right now, either. I mean, we still have clients that are moving ahead with planning projects to migrate obsolete control systems and stuff like that. A lot of this stuff is still continuing. It's actually a good time to do this kind of project planning because, you know, you're stuck behind a desk. So, what else could you do, right? You're not going to be able to do a lot of on-site stuff. So, this type of longer-term planning, it's a pretty good time to be doing this kind of stuff if you can do it.
Jim: Right. Larry, you mentioned that some of the conditions when we talked earlier were similar to, you know, the 2008 recession and the...
Larry: Yeah, that's what we told people back in 2008 too is that this recession is going to end, and when it ends, you gotta be ready to start up again. And I think this will be shorter term. I mean, they're saying we're going to have the peak of that virus within about three weeks, and then, you figure there's kind of a long tail on the end of that. But people are going to be out driving around again. Transportation will resume. All this stuff is going to come back on, so we’ve got to be ready for it.
Jim: Well, downstream as you know, when the gas prices are down, and Chicago area is like $2 or less, and so, are the downstream industries and people that use energy are going to eventually, maybe they'll benefit? The essential industries are still open, but the lower oil and gas prices could benefit a lot of those industries as well, right?
Craig: Absolutely. As a matter of fact...
Larry: Yeah.
Craig: Yeah, one of the things that we've heard, certainly, companies, for example, like in the petrochemical industry, just the inexpensive feedstock, for example, that they'd be having, how can they benefit from, obviously, the currently low oil prices? The other thing we've heard is, if you are going to be borrowing money to finance some of these expansions, if you're getting pretty close to zero interest rates, this is really the time, if the company is going to be borrowing money. And obviously, if they have a pretty solid line of creditors as many of our well-established manufacturing clients do, they would be in a position that they can really kind of leverage that low-cost capital to make some of these investments and expansion. But the thing that's really good with a lot of these digital transformation projects is, and this is a question we get from a lot of our clients on the user side, is they'll say, "Do we really have to go through a full-blown rip and replace of our existing installed base of automation equipment to go ahead with these digital transformation projects?" And the thing is, is that in many cases, these are additives. For example, it's like if you're adding edge devices, edge control within the plant, it will certainly allow you to run analytics locally and be able to make better control decisions in real-time without having to send that information outside the plant or up into the cloud but using the decisions and now storing that information in the cloud long-term. These are things that are additives to your existing installed base. It's not going to require massive investments of tearing everything out and getting everything installed. So, the idea of digital transformation and what these companies are discovering is, it's not going to be quite as daunting a task and require some of the massive investments that I think that sometimes there's a perception that it takes to get going.
Jim: Right. Well, I mean, I know a lot of folks are somewhat deer-in-headlights because the news is so unprecedented. And the saying is, people always, in a crisis situation, they just go with what they know. And so, I'm sure a lot of people will be a lot more, "If it's not broke, don't fix it." You know, don't make any, unusual moves. But then, like you said, this is an opportunity. A time when, borrowing is inexpensive, there's downtime to contemplate some of this stuff out. I guess my question is, how do you get out of that deer-in-the-headlights, that paralysis, and then, what's the to-do list for the digital transformation project.
Craig: Well, I would say that to get rid of the deer or the headlights is to recognize that status quo will result in that the next time this happens, the next time there is a pandemic or some massive global crisis, the companies that do nothing today will be the companies that will not exist for the next cycle. You know, you can try to short-term, just say, "I'm not going to do anything. I'm going to freeze all spending. I'm going to leave everything alone and just wait for everything to come back," but some of the things that we've heard, even from talking to some of our end-user clients, is that in the future when they are trying to re-establish their supply chain, for example, they're not going to work with companies and partner with companies that don't have a similar level of digital transformation. They want to be able to communicate with these companies in real-time, make absolute, quick decisions based on consumer demand, supply chain availability, energy costs, even a thing which we hadn't thought about several years ago, but even things like trade and tariff prices, for example. They need to have that information essentially at their beck and call so they're in a position that they can make fast changes based on the real-time conditions. And in many cases, they're not going to work with companies that don't have that ability themselves. So, for example, what that says is, is that end users are going to put the weight on their supply chain, they're going to put the weight on their automation suppliers to make sure that everybody's at a minimum level of digital transformation and have truly digitalized their systems. You know, kind of moving from digitized to digitalized and get to the point where all these systems are working in unison to make sure that the next time that we get hit, blindsided by a crisis, that these companies have the ability to quickly redeploy manufacturing, quickly redeploy where their workers are able to make decisions, redeploy the equipment from on-site to remote or offsite. So, any indecision you have today, deer-in-the-headlights, you may win the battle, but you're going to lose the war long-term for the companies that are not planning now and certainly investing when things come back to be prepared for the next time.
Larry: Yeah. And like I said, this isn't a bad time to start thinking about project planning. And if you've been considering some kind of IoT implementation, like Craig said, most of the solutions fit quite well over a variety of legacy equipment. It doesn't really matter what you have installed. They don't take that long to implement versus, say, implementing a distributed control system, which is a highly engineered project that can last for years in a big installation. These IoT projects are a much shorter times, and you can realize a return on investment a lot faster. So, it's not a time to put the brakes on as far as implementing these types of solutions. In fact, like we said before, a lot of people are ramping up and accelerating their programs just so they can adapt to what's happening right now.
Jim: Right. But then, Larry, what would you say are just a couple of things that should be on my to-do list or my laundry list? You know, just get a couple of internet-enabled edge devices. You know, do a little project, plug them in, have…
Larry: Well, of course, you need to know what you want to do, right?
Jim: Yeah, okay.
Larry: So, you should have some kind of an objective in mind. And then, you purchase the technology based on what your business objectives are, right? Because, I mean, you're buying the technology to achieve some kind of a business result. Whether it's that you want to be more agile or respond more quickly, or maybe you're a city. One of the areas I look at now is smart cities. It's been kind of tough articulating this value proposition of tying together all these different functional areas, which is what an IoT platform does, right? It's what a smart city platform does. It ties together information from water and utilities, and emergency, health, and safety stuff and everything else. So, you get that single-pane-of-glass view into everything that's going on all at once, so you can make some informed decisions about what to do next. Now, I think that value proposition may be a little easier to articulate, because you can actually see there's a lot of stuff going on right now, and we need to be able to react pretty quickly. And what's happening over here might have a big impact in what's happening in another area. So, you need to understand those interrelationships a lot better.
Jim: But I guess the advice to a typical end-user, maybe somebody running a mid-sized process application, like water, wastewater, or, medium or small refinery of some kind or, processing downstream chemicals, or food and beverage. Some of the stories we've done in the past were about kind of the end run, where you used to have to take the signals in, you know, go through the I/O and the PLCs and the DCS, and so, then, one of the unifying thread seemed to be that people could just get an Internet-enabled sensor or module or something and then just plug it into an Internet network, and poof, there would be some signals and parameters showing up on their laptop or their smartphone. And any major control changes would be done by the traditional infrastructure, but there is just kind of like, just do a little end run around the usual structure and get some of this data via the Internet on whatever, laptop or smartphone, and then you could begin to optimize. You know, mostly used for monitoring. And then you could begin to optimize in a small way. Is that something people can do right now?
Larry: I think we're seeing a bigger push toward even more stuff, not just remote monitoring of a few sensors, but actual remote operations and eventually remote control. A lot of it comes down to operational requirements, again, and security is one of those. So, it's great to plug a smart sensor in with an Internet connection and monitor it from your laptop or something. But, you know, doing that at home with Raspberry Pi is a lot different from doing it in an industrial setting, especially when you're a critical infrastructure industry like water, wastewater, or power transmission and distribution. You really have to keep cybersecurity in mind and secure remote access.
Jim: Well, I must scold you guys because you're answering questions before I ask them, but I guess we've just done too many podcasts together. But that's true. If people are more remote and are at home more, how do you make your digital transformation project if you're contemplating one? How do you make it secure? Is there a to-do list for that, Larry?
Larry: Yeah. And there are ways to do that. Those things need to be in your supplier selection criteria. So, let's say I'm a water industry end-user, and I want to implement a new SCADA system and my old one is 30 years old, and I really want some remote access to go along with this. Well, number one, you're probably gonna have to prioritize your migration project to, maybe start at the HMI level and include secure remote access for the HMI. So, how does your supplier do that secure remote access? Do they do it themselves? Do they have a partner? What is the methodology that they use and so forth? So, these are all things that you need to evaluate on a supplier-by-supplier basis. I wish we could answer that question in a podcast, but then we'd have to sit down for like an hour just to go over cybersecurity-related selection criteria for HMI and SCADA and DCS. But that is something that you need to keep in mind. And one of the things that we see a lot is that the users don't even have this kind of criteria when they're looking at new systems.
Jim: Well, we've gotten our assignment, our homework for next time. But I think it's just talking about some of these things, realizing that, "All right. We do have a new challenge. There's profound, unprecedented changes happening." There's ways to respond using much easier to use tools than we used to have, and there's remedies and ways to get out of that, the paralysis, even though we're going through some difficult situations here, I guess. Is that fair to say?
Larry: Yeah, I think it's fair. There's a lot we can do right now to make things easier, to make it easier for people to work remotely in a secure fashion, to plan ahead for when things are going to start up again. And it's a good time to accelerate a digital transformation plan if you've been considering it, or, if you're sort of in the early stages or whatever, don't stop.
Jim: Hey, Craig, I was going to ask, you know, just, I was trying to remember what we just talked about, and of course, you know, sometimes I can't, but could we put it in a nutshell kind of which industries are up and which are down?
Craig: Well, I mean, right now, from the consumer products perspective, people are certainly still, I think from a food and beverage perspective, the pharmaceutical perspective, I mean, these industries still have to continue to produce and fill the supply chain. And as we were saying earlier, even if the method of acquiring the good is different, even if it's shifted, say, from food distribution, let's say, to the restaurant distribution to more of a direct-to-the-consumer distribution, but the thing is that the food, beverage, and pharmaceutical supply chain has to continue to produce. So, those industries, I would say, will be the least affected right now. But at the same time, because of stay-at-home work orders, these industries recognize the fact that how do they maintain the consumer demand if they, in their particular geographies, don't necessarily have access to the plants. So, right now, what we see from food, beverage, pharmaceutical, those industries are going to again, remain healthy for the time being, but recognize that to meet their customer requirements, they are going to have to be implementing a lot of these digital transformation, supply chain and remote access technologies.
From the oil and gas perspective, at some point, with the low price and when people begin driving again, you will begin to see the prices begin to creep up. Once we get rid of a lot of this excess inventory, and again, if anything, politically can be done and negotiate between Russia and Saudi Arabia and the OPEC members to see if they can cutback on production instead of flooding the world with supply, cutting back. So, you combine that with greater consumer consumption, say in a quarter from now plus less supply, so you start to bring that up. But one of the things that is going to happen in the oil and gas industry is, because of the fact that the breakeven line even for traditional production, I'm not even talking shale, and certainly, we're many, many dollars away from talking things like oil sands, but you're going to be at a point where these companies recognize that they are going to have fewer workers in the field, they're gonna have to be able to do more monitoring and control of production facilities with digital transformation. So, we're really going to see that get accelerated because, you know, the new normal in oil and gas is they're just going to have to find ways to, again, be profitable at a lower price per barrel. And digital transformation will be the way that helps them achieve that. And Larry and I can certainly tell you that our oil and gas clients have been very thirsty for information at A.R.C. because that's exactly what they're thinking right now, without getting into any specific company names. But this is certainly something that they're all very aggressive about.
For the automotive industry, I just saw the first, beginning to start to see the March sales numbers. The first company I saw was Hyundai announced a 43% decline in sales in March compared to March the year before. So, you're probably figuring that the whole, that's probably going to be reflective amongst all the suppliers for March. So, the first-quarter numbers will be certainly dented, but the second-quarter numbers will probably be more reflective of the March numbers. That is going to create a little bit of a pent-up demand once things start to, hopefully, normalize in the third and fourth quarter, because cars that have not been replaced. And people begin driving again and need to replace those vehicles.
The other thing that happens, especially in the United States, is that when you do have low oil prices and low gasoline prices, people begin to then shift back to the cars that they typically like to buy, which are SUVs, crossovers, pickup trucks, cars that are a little bit more expensive to operate based on the gasoline prices. So, with lower gasoline prices, you're going to certainly have sales with an increase in the vehicles that the auto manufacturers from a profit margin perspective really like to sell. So, Ford would far rather be selling F-150s and Explorers, and GM would far rather be selling a lot of Suburbans and Escalades and Silverados because that's where they're going to make the most money. So, we do see, maybe, towards the end of the year a bit of a resurgence in the automotive industry, especially benefiting the lower fuel prices.
From a pulp and paper industry, once they get over the surge of bath tissue and some of the other tissues that are flying off the shelf, I think that the new normal is going to be is, there's going to continue to be more growth in cardboard and packaging board. I mean, that's certainly been keeping those companies going very, very strongly. Certainly, with the whole ship to home and Amazon phenomenon, and that's only going to increase, because I do think there's going to be a certain amount of the consumer that's going to say, "You know something? I kind of like having some of these products shipped to my home." Even those that maybe were not Amazon Prime members certainly before this crisis that are now have become and may begin to shift and that's going to certainly create a major shift for all the food and beverage and pharmaceutical companies as well, as more of those products get delivered directly to the home rather than just through the retail channels.
So, I think from a chemical industry perspective, we've certainly heard from some of our chemical clients, especially those that are making things like that are now being enlisted to make products like hand sanitizers they hadn't in the past but are also making a lot of cleaning solutions. And I think that this is going to create some new habits by people around the world as far as with hand washing and sanitizing. And people that may not have done those things quite as a regular practice may begin to adopt that as regular practice. So, we do think that on that end, that's going to have a positive impact on the chemical companies that make that. And they all, again, will also benefit from the lower price feedstock certainly with the lower price barrel...You know, price per barrel of oil.
Jim: Well, I mean, that's an amazing summary there and thanks. So, I'm sorry to put you on the spot. But, Larry, I also want to put you on the spot. Is there any items that Craig might've missed or final thoughts?
Larry: You know, my perspective is more from security, from cybersecurity and remote operations and trying to deal with the situations that are happening in control rooms right now, and how plants are operating. And even for process plants that might be drawing down operations a little bit right now, basically, keeping staff safe and healthy to be able to keep the plants running in a safe manner is of the utmost importance. So, there's also some organizational aspects to this too, in terms of how you want to handle staffing. If you want to have people on-site on a semi-permanent basis, like the example I gave earlier in power distribution where they literally, kind of have a cot in the control room kind of situation. But these are organizational issues that have to be addressed during this crisis, too. And also, physical security, right? Controlling access in and out of plants, maybe limiting some of the ways that you've had to get in and out of plants before, and maybe just narrow it down to one entry and exit or what have you. These are all things that you need to consider if you're in a large plant environment. And there's this epidemic going around, and obviously, you don't want more people to get sick.
Jim: Okay. All right. And I was trying to think while you guys were talking, you mentioned the free licensing, and I think we did have a couple of news items in our April issue and probably online as well.
Larry: Yeah, there's some cybersecurity suppliers too that are offering free licenses to some of their secure remote operations stuff out there. So, it's a good time actually to start experimenting with some of this. If you want to try some stuff out, it's a good time to, and this is like free for six months kind of stuff, or I think you said nine months, Craig. But it's not just 30 days free, it's much longer term than that.
Jim: Okay. Well, I don't know if you guys can mention names, but I don't think I'm prevented. So, I think it was ABB and GE Digital were the two that we covered, but I know there's other ones as well. And just another side note on our just going to the printer coverage, you know, I wanted to highlight something in news. But, A.R.C.'s website and its subpage, "Impact of COVID-19 on Industrial Markets," detailed your efforts and your colleagues' to respond to the pandemic. And there's, like, more than 20 online reports about it, just all the topics we talked about. So, you can find that right on the A.R.C., the arcweb.com website. I think the full address was arcweb.com/impact-covid-19-industrial-markets. So, that's just a shout-out to the website there, because we don't want the podcast to take over too much.
Anyway, listen, Larry and Craig, thanks for helping me and our listeners begin to get a handle on the how COVID-19 may shake-out in the process automation and control fields. You know, getting a sense of what's going on in certain situations can be really helpful. And I just thank you guys, again, for really accomplishing that today.
Craig: Well, thank you. Thank you, Jim. And be well and stay safe everyone.
Larry: Thanks. Be safe.
Jim: All right. And we wish that of everybody we come in contact with virtually or in person. This has been another "Control Amplified" Podcast. I'm Jim Montague. Thanks for listening. And as always, remember that the "Control Amplified" Podcasts are available on most podcasting apps, such as the iTunes Store and Google Play, and on Control Magazine's YouTube channel Podcast Plus. You can just go to controlglobal.com and listen to them there as well. All right. Thanks a bunch, everybody.
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